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  #1  
Old 01-06-2010, 07:13 PM
iamchuck
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Default 94 Mustang

I'm starting to race this year after March school.

I have a motor for school but I'm looking to build a race motor.

I will not be racing Nationals at all.

Is a 302 the way to go?

Stroker w 300lb. penalty?

Cast or Eddy heads?

I assume Boss block?

You get the picture.

Thanks,

Chuck

iamchuck@verizon.net
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2010, 07:25 PM
jimwheeler jimwheeler is offline
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Chuck,
There might be some good motors available on this site.
302 Ford is the way to go.
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2010, 08:31 PM
fairlane_68
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...and the Boss block is about the only Ford block available new. If there's any new vanilla 302 blocks out there, people aren't letting them go easily.
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  #4  
Old 01-06-2010, 08:40 PM
King Matt
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Whether you race nationals or not, at the power and RPM levels you can build to pretty easily under the AS rules, a stock 5.0L block won't last you too long. And at the power and RPM the top guys are making, it might not make it through a weekend. The Boss block is the way to go if you have the money to spend to do it right.
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  #5  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:30 PM
Walther
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My opinion, a non-5.0 stock block will work up to about 6500 rpm provided it is well prepped by a professional race shop. Like Matt said, a BOSS Block is the way to go if you can swing it financially. Obviously it is stronger, but it is also better oiled. But it cost's 1600.00 without machining Stay under 313 CID, IMO the weight is not worth a stroker.

If you are looking for longevity/cost savings vs. peak performance, use an early 302 block with a stud girdle. Sacrifice weight for strength- meaning use beefy H-beams instead of light weight I-beams. Eagle makes a zero-balance forged steel crank for about 700.00. You can get a complete rotating assembly for about 1600.00. I used a 306 long rod set-up with 5.40" rods, Eagle crank, Probe pistons, King race bearings, MAHLE rings, Milodon HV/HP pump, a Champ oil pan and a Moroso accumulator, GT40P heads with 1.94's...and make pretty decent HP/TQ. I was keeping national level guys in sight on the straights @ Sebring- but getting spanked in the turns. (meaning Tom Ellis- he is stupid fast compared to me)

I am on the fence whether to upgrade to the Edlebrocks and add 100 lbs. What I've been told is they are worth about 30 HP over the GT40P's. It's probably worth it despite the weight.

Mark W-
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:31 PM
iamchuck
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Default 94 Mustang

What can a dependable 302 be built for that will last a few season.

I'll definitely use a Boss

$ 7,000.00 or less?

Will I be competetive at all in this range or do I need to spend 13k or more?

Thanks
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  #7  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:33 PM
Walther
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I have about 6K in mine. So far, so good.
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  #8  
Old 01-07-2010, 12:43 AM
fastandyracing fastandyracing is offline
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Chuck,

Welcome aboard, I did the same thing you are currently doing last year, Walther did it over the last year and a half or so, so we can both give you the benefit of our experiences (read that as mistakes).

First off, not knowing your previous track experiences, pardon me if I offend, but as a new guy what you (and I) need is seat time. I can pretty much guarantee you that you will improve your lap times 10 times more with seat time and fresh tires than you will with that last 30 or even 50 HP. With all that being said, you can't have a wet dish rag under the hood either, it isn't any fun.

FYI, I build all of my own motors, I have previously had a Ford performance business, and have been doing motors for street, drag, and open track cars for quite a few years. If you have the knowledge, patience, experience, and the proper measuring tools, you can build you own motors, there is no magic, but one thing you have to remember, and I have said it before, "everything matters". We are pushing these motors pretty hard, even at the regional level, you pretty much have to turn 6500 - 7000, so good machine work is a must, and precise bearing clearances and proper parts selection is critical. There are a few "must do's", and then some "ought to do's", and a couple of "would be nice to do's if the budget allows".

Here are my opinions.

Must do's

Forged Steel crank, you can't reliably turn over 6000 without one (trust me on this one)

Good balance job Preferably internal, but 28 in oz is OK, stay away from the 50 in oz

Custom cam Pick you favorite supplier, comp, crane, crower, but no 'out of the book' cam will get you where you need to be.

Use a good oil pan and accusump system, I use Canton, some use Champ, after looking at both at PRI the design is very close, use a two quart or better accusump, check out Canton's "road race" feature, it is better that just a plain accusump.

Oil Cooler and lines, Run a big one with at least -10 lines, you will need it, without out one I pegged my 280 oil temp guage on a 70 degree day, with a huge fluidyne (surplus nascar) cooler, even at Daytona in August, only 220-240.

The right oils, Current off the shelf oils WILL NOT WORK WITH FLAT TAPPET CAMS IN RACING APPLICATIONS!!!!!!!! I have use Joe Gibbs oil and assembly lubes with excellent success, Brad Penn is also good, after break in make sure your oil has enough ZDDP, current "over the counter" oils do not, that includes Mobil 1, you must use a racing oil check red line, Amsoil, Joe Gibbs, or Brad Penn. Nothing is more disappointing than wiping out a cam on break in.

Top quality fasteners, At least use ARP head and main bolts, rocker studs are critical definately ARP here, uprading the cam bolt, flywheel bolts and such is worth it also. Main and head studs are better, but you at least have to use upgraded bolts.

Ought to do's

Use a 'good' block, I am a little torn on this one, I think an early 289 or early 70's 302 block with a girdle should be able to survive this abuse, late 5.0's are OK, but the earlier blocks are better. The new Boss block is great, but not only is it $1600, it is also much heavier, and right over the nose. I am currently using a 5.0 block, next motor will be based on a 71 302 block. I think the key to keeping a block alive is the balance job (see must do's above)

Edelbrock heads, If you budget allows, these are really nice, but beware, buy them bare and put top quality components in them. They are almost certainely worth the extra 100 lbs, most fox cars are a little heavy anyway, so at least you can add balast where you want. I currently have GT40P heads and you can make good power with them, and here you can pick up a clean set for around $200, so they are much cheaper than the Edelbrocks.

Long rod, short pistons, Starting from scratch, I would choose a a 5.4 rod which allows you to put in a much shorter (and thus lighter) piston. Get the lightest pistons you can, with our relatively low compression ratio, and no power adders, you can get away with it.

Girdles, You motor is so phat it needs girdles. Seriously, the main girdle is probably more of a must do, rocker arm girdles are definately nice. I am currently running a Probe main girdle, but not a rocker arm girdle, but I do plan on using them in my next motor.


Would be nice to do if budget allows.

Aluminum flywheel, If you are going to buy a billet steel flywheel anyway, the aluminum one is not much more, already have a billet flywheel in you stuff?? Use it, you won't notice that much difference.

Worked carb, See all of the posts by the PRO systems guys, there is some power there, I am currently using an out of the box Holley, with only jet and shooter changes with absolutely no problems. I will probably upgrade to some better metering blocks sometime this year.

Custom stroke crank, The limit is 313 CID so with a 3.03 stroke crank and a 4.03 bore you come out under by a hair, you will also need a different pin height piston, but these are available. Assuming around 1.5 hp/cid, the extra 7 cid would be worth 10 hp, not a bunch, but hey, 10 hp is 10 hp.

Internal Coatings, There are a bunch of these out there, ranging from heat barriers for piston tops and combustion chambers, bearing coatings for reduced friction, oil shedding coatings for rods and cranks, it goes on and on. There is probably some HP and reliabilty to be had here, I have used them in some customer cars, but am not currently using them in mine.

With all that said, I was able to win the Central Florida Region AS championship in my first year running. I didn't win it with speed necessarily, I had to put in an old 289 short block I had in the shop after having crank troubles after my school (see the must have a forged crank comments) but of the 8 races I entered (7 with the 289), I finished 7 or them. A broken rocker stud (not ARP, sometimes I wish I would listen to my own advice) took me out on lap one of the only race I didn't finish. So attention to detail, good parts selection, and car prep is the key to finishing races, and finishing races is the key to wining championships. Somewhere I heard it said, to finish first, first you have to finish.

PM me if you want to talk about any of this stuff.

Good Luck,

Andy
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  #9  
Old 01-07-2010, 02:59 PM
iamchuck
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Found my motor.


Thanks for all the help!!!!!!!
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2010, 05:42 PM
Walther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastandyracing
...and finishing races is the key to wining championships....
Andy

Wining championship? The drink or the emotion? When I get through with you this year you'll be whining or drinking Boones Farm!!!

Sorry pal, but I couldn't let that typo slip by!

Your buddy, Mark!!
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