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  #111  
Old 04-30-2017, 05:03 PM
nomics nomics is offline
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I agree with Tom, leave the full prep cars alone and concentrate on allowing more recent builds in. Letting the old T2 Camaros & Fire Chickens made sense and has brought some cars in. Expanding on that idea may work.
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  #112  
Old 05-23-2017, 10:56 PM
nape nape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsmith1 View Post
I don't like the one-set per weekend. Like wheel I usually use a practice or qual to break in a new set of tires, and then run the race on already broken in tires. And if not breaking tires in, usually I am running practice on old, old tires.

One thing that I haven't heard much feedback on is how much time and special engineering effort is given to producing one-off parts to statisfy the rules requiring stock control arms. Figuring out how to make offset bushings, or incorporate spherical bearings into the bushings causes a lot of special, only for AS engineering. For what I spent for spherical bearings for Gen 4 f-body front lower control arms, I could have spent slightly more and just had nice aftermarket control arms with the spherical bearings built in, and with a bunch more caster and camber adjustment.

Similarly, for aftermarket k-frames/front cross-members, stock front upper control arms, and rear control arms. Most of these are available in the aftermarket at reasonable prices, and without needing to do your own special engineering.

In my opinion, this is an area where NASA AI got it completely right, and SCCA got it right only for the prep shops who want to sell the engineering and custom parts.
Eh, if you need them. My AI car literally has 10+ year old poly bushings in stock A-arms with adjustable mono-ball ball joints and stock k-member. Having the option is good, but it scares off some competitors: "I'd need $3000-$5000 worth of suspension parts like that guy*!"

As far as other talking about pulling AI cars back to AS? Probably not that likely. Between the engines and no/low aero, most aren't interested. I have zero desire to get into a HP war. My $3500 carb-to-pan, pump gas, AL headed 305 is on it's 3rd season since it was last freshened and it's still setting track records.

http://www.nasagreatlakes.com/Result...#American Iron

Times are really similar and it would be fun to come run, but I'd have to run a faster tire than a Toyo since SCCA doesn't seem to have Toyo contingency and I don't even run anymore unless the contingency is going to payout.

TJ Bain
AI Firebird #134

*I'm not that guy

Last edited by nape; 05-23-2017 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Fixed link
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  #113  
Old 05-24-2017, 11:26 AM
Danny"TheKid"Richardson Danny"TheKid"Richardson is offline
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Very interesting view point from a nasa racer. Thank you for your post!
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  #114  
Old 06-01-2017, 06:20 PM
Richard Pryor Richard Pryor is offline
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Default Old Guy Decides To Do A Sedan For Maximum Fun and Minimum Cost

Hello, All. I've been dropping in on this site over the years and have found it interesting and entertaining. My racing with SCCA started in January, 1969, right after I turned 21 and ended 40 years later.

The last 20 years I raced F Bodies in SSGT, SSB, ITE, T1, T2, AS and also NASA's CMC series. I always enjoyed myself which is one reason for my unusual longevity in the sport and racing community but I finally decided to pull the plug as I headed for retirement and other directions. But after almost a decade of no racing I decided it was time to return to the track. But cheap S.O.B that I am, I have no desire to do so with a large outlay of work or cash.

So, combining my long time experience with various class Camaro/Firebird racers and SCCA's restricted prep allowing in ex-T2 cars, it seemed a perfect opportunity to do so on an old retired guy's budget So allow me to add my 2 cents to this discussion with real world costs to achieve my goal of maximum fun for minimum outlay.

First, I have no illusions that my foray into AS is going to threaten anyone running at the top level in the class. My T2 times were in the 1:44 range at Laguna Seca almost 12 years ago running on CMC Toyo R1A shaved tires. (yeah, I was cheap then, too, and just used my old CMC tires.) The AS lap record at Laguna for the Runoffs in 2012 was in the 1:38s. Big difference.

Having run Hoosier R7s and Toyos R1s on similar cars over the years I found around a 2-3 second a lap difference between the two designs. But I have no desire to use a set of tires every 3 sessions. Our program with the Hoosiers and Goodyear GSCS before them was to race on scuffed in new tires, use them the next qualifying session and then relegate them to practice sessions, usually twice, then give them to local broke autocrossers.

In CMC the Toyos, when starting with new shaved to 3/32" depth, were simply run until the cords were almost ready to show. They actually became slightly faster right up until the end and were always extremely consistent. And we'd get around 6 full weekends on them.

With NASA a weekend usually meant two races, practices and qualifying sessions for almost 2 hours each weekend compared to a standard, at the time, SCCA 15 min practice, 20-25 minute qualify and a 30 minute race. So, yes, I'm a firm believer in a spec tire for equality and cost savings. It can be done in AS, as NASA has shown in CMC. But that doesn't matter to me at this point. I'll be running a new set of Toyo R888 tires priced at $145@ from Tire Rack. Should be just fine and last me a whole season. We'll see. As noted previously I'm out for fun on a budget.

And this brings me to the point of this rambling post. I'm doing this on the cheap and the AS structure with T2 cars might be the way to help pad out the grid. There are garages across the country that have idle T2 cars in them. And they are cheap. In my case I bought back a 1999 Camaro that I'd sold in 2007. Yeah, it was state of the art in 1999 when it was built. Tom Oates won the 2000 T2 Runoffs in it. 17 years later it's still a fun car to drive just not competively in AS...at least by this 70 year old racer.

The fellow I sold it to 10 years ago raced it for 3-4 years and parked it. It sat..and sat..and sat. When I started thinking about racing again, or at least running some open track days at Laguna Seca (20 minutes from my house), I contacted him and bought it back for $3250 including extra wheels, hubs, brake rotors and pads etc. Add in the cost of the new Toyos, new belt set, 2015 Snell helmet, all new fluids and I'm in it under $4500 track ready (my labor going through a nut and bolt top to bottom etc was fun and didn't cost me a dime.)

I don't believe this price was an exception. For $5,000 to $8,000 track ready shoud do it for all the ex-T2 garage queens out there just gathering dust. I am NOT going to take advantage of the rules to fully prep it to the max under current rules. The 2000 Runoffs winning state-of-the-art is just fine with me. I'm not spending one penny more than what I've just enumerated.

Going faster won't make it more fun for me. My objective of getting on the track and driving and having fun is not contingent on getting the last second out of this car. (Or even the last 6 seconds). Heck, with this old, fat, bald body and aging reflexes I'll probably feel like I'm turning 1:38's even if they're really 1:48's.

I realize that my goals are different from many here. My intention is to race with the cars around me that are turning similar lap times, whatever they turn out to be. There may not even be any AS cars on the track besides me. Last year only 3 AS cars ran in the San Francisco Region and their times were, to be charitable, capable of winning an SSGT race in 1991. But..and a big but....they had fun and raced with each other. But this year so far, no shows in AS.

But, and again another big but...I talked with several of my old contemporaries (this means we all have Medicare and Social Security) and several of them have caught my enthusiasm for going out to the track one more time and having fun together. So there may well be 3-4 ex-T2 cars running in AS in 2017 in the SF Region.

Yes, our goals are different than most but I feel the restricted prep for ex-T2 cars may very well have more appeal to budget minded racers who prize on track fun over trophies and checkered flags.

NASA built their successful CMC series based on low cost and high fun. I realize this flies in direct opposition to SCCA's AS past rules package but it might help grow the class by reaching out to a group of people who never thought they could afford AS. Restricted prep is a cheap and reliable way to start racing...and, of course, you can still spend $$$ to your heart's content to go as fast as you and the cars are capable of.

I believe the rules have pretty much allowed a fully rule maximized T2 Camaro that would be close to traditional AS rules prep cars. Purely speculation on my part, of course, but I think that this is definitely possible.

So if you have friends out there that have T2 cars just sitting, see if you can match them up with AS recruits. Perhaps they've been converted already to CMC/AI cars and it's too little too late. But the idea got this old cheapskate racer back on the track again.
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  #115  
Old 06-01-2017, 08:09 PM
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DBailey DBailey is offline
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Default Come on in! the waters fine!

Hi Richard! --you old -- well you know! How is Bubba?
We may be getting one of the cars to a race this year!
So you'll have some company! Let me know if you need
anything--ps--we got tires if you need any!

Nice to know you're still kicking!!

Dean & Aaron
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  #116  
Old 06-12-2017, 12:27 AM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nape View Post
Eh, if you need them. My AI car literally has 10+ year old poly bushings in stock A-arms with adjustable mono-ball ball joints and stock k-member. Having the option is good, but it scares off some competitors: "I'd need $3000-$5000 worth of suspension parts like that guy*!"

As far as other talking about pulling AI cars back to AS? Probably not that likely. Between the engines and no/low aero, most aren't interested. I have zero desire to get into a HP war. My $3500 carb-to-pan, pump gas, AL headed 305 is on it's 3rd season since it was last freshened and it's still setting track records.

http://www.nasagreatlakes.com/Result...#American Iron

Times are really similar and it would be fun to come run, but I'd have to run a faster tire than a Toyo since SCCA doesn't seem to have Toyo contingency and I don't even run anymore unless the contingency is going to payout.

TJ Bain
AI Firebird #134

*I'm not that guy
Here's a very recent in car race TJ just posted at Pittsburg International Raceway. I hadn't seen this track before but the parity between a third gen gm car with 305 and dirt track spoiler vs. a very trick sn 95 mustang eco boost turbo v6 with all the aero tricks is very telling that a lower grip tire and power to weight ratio works well. Both these cars I believe to be under 2900#. Fun race at a great track
https://youtu.be/08j_6M-U1Ro
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