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Old 05-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Talladega Talladega is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pa
Posts: 342
Default Dog Ring Trans

Intresting talk, but don't no how true it is,

years ago it was the cast cranks that limited HP,
Than it was the trans as a limiter
Steel cranks were allowed than a better Trans,
Now alum heads bigger valves ,,, dam History does repeat it self,

and don't give me the crap about CBJ,,, Right Chuck,,lol

Im Game , but just like spending once or twice, not 5-8 times.
And do- do my Homework

Some break the T-10 some don't
some can shift the TKO 600 some can't, but they seem to hold up,
Just hate to spend the 3k for a GForce GT-4 if its breaking,
but it fits so nice in a 3-4th gen without cutting it all up to install,
Maybe allow a dogring gear set for ,,,,,,
T-10,TKO s and the T-5s
and keep what trans we have , i DON'T no , but hate to spend and still break
stuff,and not be able to get parts that last,

just if trans are opened up it might be hard to police gear ratios, and if gear
ratios are opened up than people will have a box for diffrent tracks,

what really is the answer with the HP that is now being produced.
But i no Mike L. says he hasn't broke his trans and makes HP, but its way
heavy, maybe take the TKO apart and lighten or undercut the gears,
and they do say that the TKO takes 11-15 HP more to get the same out of as
a T-5 or T-10 ,(HP to rear wheels)

Yea i no maybe only Chuck and KW will understand what im saying,,lol
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:22 PM
jimwheeler jimwheeler is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,275

So, are you saying they should allow dog rings and square cut gears?
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:13 PM
Dawson Motorsports
Posts: n/a

Ok, I've been quite enough.
As an ex-ASAC member, I've had some issues with the transmission rule.
1. Dog rings and straight cut gears. If we continue to use the current ratios.
The only thing that will happen is they will break quicker.
2. It's the ratios. Too wide. Look at the other gearbox ratios, they are rated for a min. of 100lbs. more torque with a close ratio box.
It doesn't matter who's box it is.
3. Will this increase the cost of racing? Yes. Will everyone need multiple boxes or ratios? Maybe not. Will 5th gear become usable? Yes.
4. There are some, and front runners, that do not have a gear box problem. What are they doing that some are not? I'm not sure. Ask them.

At one time in the AS life, I might not have been the fastest in the country, but came close [yes, horse shoes and hand grenades] in the SE.
OEM T-10, bought from a junk yard in Toledo, OH. $200.00 del. to Fl.
1 set of bearings and syncro's. The spare is an OEM box, cast iron front alum, tail housing.
5.What's the answer? With all the changes made recently. Leave it alone, bring the cars back. Work on a viable change. It takes time.
Make it and go on.
To finish first, first you have to finish. Take care of the car!
Enough of a rant, I'll go back into hiding [lurking].
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:34 AM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 509


(Quoted For Truth for you old folks that do not know internet lingo yet)
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:42 AM
jimwheeler jimwheeler is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,275

You are beginning to be as confusing as Talladega. To what are you referring?
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:52 PM
fastandyracing fastandyracing is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Apopka FL
Posts: 546

Just my two cents, LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!

Ok, some of the guys break transmissions every weekend (sometimes twice), why allow a "rock crusher" type transmission rule to benefit them???? Reward the guys who can take care of their equipment and still go fast (I agree with Chuck there). If we start seeing half of the Asedan field drop out in a weekend due to transmission failures, then take a look at it, otherwise LEAVE IT ALONE!!

And FYI, I have a very nice Tex racing T101A transmission with dog rings and straight cut gears just sitting in my shop, so its not like I don't have just about the ultimate transmission already in my possession. But those things are like $5K new, or something crazy like that.

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Old 05-06-2011, 01:32 PM
thomas toth thomas toth is offline
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 664

What the hell...we already let the horse out of the barn, let's just go for slicks, bigger rims and call it B Prod. Make A Sedan a class for former T2 cars which will bring us around full circle once again to what the class should be.... a V8 "IT" based class where you can build an affordable competitive car.

#38 Camaro
Cen Div
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:40 PM
Posts: n/a
Default Pandora's Box

I was always an advocate for spending money up front for better pieces, vs. spending less money for parts that had a relatively short racing life. In the end, more money now meant less money later. To me; it was logical.

That said; I have to agree to leave the tranny rule alone. Andy has a point, as do Chuck and Jim. They are not breaking now = it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Chuck, Andy, Scott and I had some priceless conversations about which gear to grab at certain points on the track (Sebring). I was thinking how beneficial it would be to have a different ratio for second gear in my car. But therein lies the problem- If you "open" the prescribed ratios to allow any ratio- racers would have different gear boxes for different tracks. The cost of maintaining a competitive, front-running car would skyrocket.
Also, IMHO, if you allow "closer" ratios, engine builders could design the motors to operate in a narrower RPM range, which would probably equate to more HP and greater speeds. All that could result in greater brake fatigue, car's being unstable at greater speeds, etc., etc. Pandora's Box!

My .02 is to leave it alone.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:35 PM
PamRichardson PamRichardson is offline
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 862
Default trans stuff

I say keep the ratios as is, but, I gotta fall on the side of dog ring boxes. If someone can correct me, please do. But, I don't think boxes with brass synchros are supposed to have the kind of HP and torque put through them that we are producing. AND... the biggest issues with the boxes we are using is the stressers on 3rd gear, since that is where we mostly are, and the rev range can be from the 2000s through the 7000s.

I spent $3K in parts mostly, but some labor last year with 5 rebuilds of the Tex T-10, only to find out my problem is the inaccurate aftermarket parts we now get. If I could buy a dog ring box for $5K, I'd be almost ahead, at this point. That doesn't count all the other years when I had to do rebuilds on the T-10, and those costs. (and they are EVERY year)

My understanding was that at the VIR double national probably 5 AS cars had trans issues, out of 9 entries.

Us, personally, Danny started commenting that 4th gear was crunching in the first race, then in the second, it was hard to get it into 4th (note that makes you slow on the back straight at VIR when Tom Ellis is right behind). It's tough when you fix things over the winter and first weekend out you have problems. Turns out it was the same ones. Diagnosis? When you line everything up correctly inside the box, the 3-4 slider can contact the countershaft while in 3rd, causing the slider to rotate a bit, and beats down the fork. So after a short while, the fork is sloppy and doesn't shift well. So, now, I have a new slider that has been shaved back to try to avoid that problem (new fork too -- cost with parts prices going up, $180). If just seems that the T-10 issues never end. And believe me when I say, both Danny and I take very good care of that transmission while driving, and, we aren't by any means, the hardest on the equipment compared to others.

FWIW, Pam Richardson
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:04 PM
Posts: n/a

Originally Posted by PamRichardson View Post
If someone can correct me, please do. But, I don't think boxes with brass synchros are supposed to have the kind of HP and torque put through them that we are producing.
There are boxes that can handle it, a quarter-mile at a time but not for 30-40 minutes at a time. Even my circle track days were not a good example, because I only used one gear, normally forth. Road racing is tough on trannys. The inherent problem with common helical cut gears and syncrosis is; it becomes more difficult to shift quickly as RPM's increase. There has been discussion on this forum in previous threads. What I've read and been told is that in order to shift these boxes above, say, 7500 RPM, there will be some clunking and grinding of the gears as they engage and disengage. I cannot say conclusively that this is absolute fact, but I've read some informative tech articles that lead me to believe it's true.
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