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Old 11-16-2016, 04:51 PM
MattChoj MattChoj is offline
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Default American Sedan at Nurburgring?

Passing this along - watch the video: Drew Cattell, who recently ran his AS Caddy at the run-offs, just ran one of the fastest laps at the iconic Nurburgring track (7:29) in a ZL1 Camaro (maybe it wasn't the NEW racecar that made him so fast at the runoffs after all??? heck of a driver)

After watching, I am wondering when the SCCA will homologate the 2017 ZL1 into A-Sedan (restricted prep of course)....

.... Speeds of over 181 in a street car / Not a bad "day job".....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFnrcpBj5k
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:12 PM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
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Great vid.

But I can't help but wonder how top a/s cars at Daytona with under 313 ci, 600 cfm carbs, and dual plane manifolds exceeded 170 mph at Daytona, while a new supercharged Camaro with 650 HP struggled to hit 180 mph on a longer straight away. Does that new body create that much drag, or do top a/s cars produce 600 HP now?
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Last edited by Ted Johnson; 11-16-2016 at 07:40 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2016, 04:25 AM
PamRichardson PamRichardson is offline
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Default The laws of physics

Since we live in a world where fake news would suggest that people stop drinking Pepsi because of a comment that was never made, I'll put the 600 HP comment to rest immediately.

TOP AS CARS DO NOT HAVE 600 HP.

1. Holley 600s won't permit it by the laws of physics. And we've been checking carbs for about 2 years now, routinely, with non-intrusive test kits, at Majors and Runoffs races. There isn't enough air flow.

2. 600 HP motors would be a LOT faster at Daytona and MidO and every other track, than their T1 counterparts that they usually run with. (at least on the straights). And they are not.

3. The list of components that would be overwhelmed, undersized, and have serious reliability issues would make the current configuration of AS completely problematic.

End of story on this suggestion.

Pam
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:04 AM
Danny"TheKid"Richardson Danny"TheKid"Richardson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Johnson View Post
Great vid.

But I can't help but wonder how top a/s cars at Daytona with under 313 ci, 600 cfm carbs, and dual plane manifolds exceeded 170 mph at Daytona, while a new supercharged Camaro with 650 HP struggled to hit 180 mph on a longer straight away. Does that new body create that much drag, or do top a/s cars produce 600 HP now?
Ted
The new body doesnt create anymore drag then the AS cars do. The truth is the 650 hp rating is at the flywheel. The drivetrain loss on those cars is like 17% with all of the components so it is probably more like 540 at the wheels. Now that car has a curb weight of 3700 lbs i believe making it almost 400 lbs heavier than our car. While it is faster in a straight line it shouldnt be a HUGE difference in my opinion. I dont think AS cars can do much more than 400 to the wheels even with the top motors i think.

My street car is 4000 lbs curb weight (2010) Camaro and makes 500 at the wheels. Fastest i have gone in a straight line is 167 and it was still pulling but i could tell it was starting to drop off quickly.

FWIW
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:35 AM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny"TheKid"Richardson View Post
Ted
The new body doesnt create anymore drag then the AS cars do. The truth is the 650 hp rating is at the flywheel. The drivetrain loss on those cars is like 17% with all of the components so it is probably more like 540 at the wheels. Now that car has a curb weight of 3700 lbs i believe making it almost 400 lbs heavier than our car. While it is faster in a straight line it shouldnt be a HUGE difference in my opinion. I dont think AS cars can do much more than 400 to the wheels even with the top motors i think.

My street car is 4000 lbs curb weight (2010) Camaro and makes 500 at the wheels. Fastest i have gone in a straight line is 167 and it was still pulling but i could tell it was starting to drop off quickly.

FWIW
Thanks Danny,
Makes sense to a certain extent regarding drive train losses and weight. But food for thought,. If you watch the vid that Camaros exit speed onto a 1.33 mile straight was 110 mph. It has the new 10 speed automatic and shifts 3 times from 110 mph to 180 mph. With that in mind I ask you if you carried third or fourth gear through the bus stop at Daytona shifting once? or carrying 4th going through a banked turn reducing your acceleration and still exceeding 170mph is quite remarkable. I don't know what the distance is from the exit of the bus stop to the braking point at Daytona, but we all know it's a tri oval so you are never quite accelerating in a perfectly straight line meaning you theoretically could accelerate to more than 170 mph on the straight away at the nurburgring. All fun to discuss over the winter months.

Thanks for the info that 400 rwhp is possible with a under 313 ci full prep motor. That means the top a/s motors are in the vicinity of 490 hp at the crank now. Give or take. My best 305 iron head motor was 390 hp at the crank. We were promised that the new heads couldnt make more than 425 at the crank and that was the goal peak power range. Since you posted these current hp numbers don't you think it's time to reign these engines down? You have two new third gen guys with a very pricey engine development curve to be competitive. 400 hp at the the wheels is affordable with modern engines if you choose not to detune the class, unfortunately, you make the most expensive combinations the must have combination with regards to full prep engines.

Regarding Pam's post on what's possible and not possible with a 600 cfm 4 barrel carb?

Here's a good article on what's possible with a 500 cfm two barrel carb. All bench racing fun. Peace

https://www.google.com/amp/www.hotro...arburetor/amp/
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Last edited by Ted Johnson; 11-19-2016 at 11:40 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2016, 12:21 PM
PbFoot PbFoot is offline
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This is not fair for the other high performance vehicle manufactures of the world. Slap a wt penalty on it. LOL.
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  #7  
Old 11-19-2016, 05:27 PM
Ken Felice Ken Felice is offline
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Red face american sedan at nurburgring.

The big HP figures that are being posted are in my opinion high very very high. I would like to know what rear wheel and flywheel HP you think our motor has.Andy Mc. If there are people with 490 hp they should be the top of the class. Lets not blow smoke about numbers. A dyno has never won a race.And HP is a number. HP sells motors trq. wins races.

Hope you don't get up set with what I say but a lot of our numbers are no more than BS.
Ken
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2016, 09:11 AM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
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Guess Danny is right. Appears the new zl1 is making 540 HP at the wheels and if you choose to believe the video above accelerates to 180 mph at the nurburgring in a straight line. So sticking with the factory rating of 650 HP at the crank or this dyno run of 540 HP at the wheels ican be use as a reference to what it takes to achieve that top speed with a 3700# car

Meanwhile, using actual trap speed data at the runoffs from Daytona, top cars with under 313 CI and the limitations the class participants are supposed to follow, cars 400 pounds lighter with a 4 speed transmissions, can achieve similar top speeds as the latest and greatest supercharged Camaro, going around the high banks of Daytona and a speculative shorter distance than a 1.3 mile straight at the nurburgring. We can only speculate on the hp of top a/s cars but just an interesting comparison. IMO

Is this where we start discussing race craft, driver ability, car setup, and the entire gambit of things required to win races, when the the true topic of this forum fodder thread is how the class has been allowed to progress to a point where 30 year old tin cans are this fast, when the origins of this class were supposed to keep this an affordable, and safe class to run? And have fun..

Peace


https://youtu.be/WQLkWCAtPSw
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Last edited by Ted Johnson; 11-20-2016 at 09:20 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2016, 07:30 PM
andy mcdermid andy mcdermid is offline
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Who's "We" ?
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:36 PM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
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Happy Thanksgiving Andy.

I'm thankful for your friendly advice a few years ago. Best advice ever. Got a lot of mileage out of that.
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