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Old 06-15-2019, 08:06 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
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Anybody care to explain the 10+ second difference between 1st and 2nd? 17 seconds between 1st and 3rd? 15mph difference in speed trap(ignoring the 2 fastest speeds assuming a good draft)?

Was McDermid's car the only serious car at the Sprints? I think this result illustrates exactly what I was pointing out in my original post. I have watched Andy run there and he definitely doesn't leave anything on the table.

I mention him not to point fingers but he is the benchmark for the class at this time.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:17 PM
Richard Pryor Richard Pryor is offline
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Default The Shape of Things to Come

with apologies to H.G. Wells..

Dave, I'm sure there are a few pockets of A Sedans left in the country, especially the East Coast, but in my mind the expense and growing age of the cars (and the drivers for that matter) have relegated A Sedan to the heap of once popular classes. I note there were zero AS entries the past month at the Portland Super Tour and Seattle Major.

Furthermore I believe that the CRB and BoD have driven a stake in the heart of the remaining A Sedan entrants with the inclusion of Spec Mustang in AS for 2019. I'm not sure how many will make the trek to the 2019 Runoffs from the SMG contingent but very few of them are running Nationals. But all it's going to take is someone like Roger Eagleton, Beau Borders or the best of the lot, Addison Lee, to show up for the win.

However, as to their competitiveness if they do show up, consider the 2018 Runoffs at Sonoma. Yes, I realize it is a different track than VIR but using the results of the SMG cars in T2 by fastest race lap and the fastest race lap for Heinricy and McDermid if the SMG cars were in AS in 2018 the first 6 cars in AS would have been SMG cars and Heinricy would have been 7th and McDermid, had he finished, would most likely have been in the same place.

Use any type of tire you want...but the winning tire will be shod on an SMG (which runs 295 tires on 18x10.5 rims) Apparently SCCA feels that the hundred or so running AS cars need to spend $15k or so reinventing their cars to now be competitive in AS.

Boy, I'd sure like to see Andy McDermid show up at the Hoosier Super Tour at Laguna Seca in July in a rental Spec Mustang. SMG driver Roger Eagleton recently was running 1:39s lap after lap in a rental car that was "tired". In his own words, "It was only a 39. I think in the #98 car we could get it down to low 38 or even a high 37,but for this car it's not bad." If that's the case a driver like Andy would be in the 36 range (On a scale of 10 with Andy at 10 then my opinion of Eagleton, a good driver but no where near the equal of Andy or John, would be a 8.5, maybe a 9 on his best day. (For what it's worth my evaluation of my own current skills on that scale is a 7)

Or do as John Blanchard has done and run AS as a regional class with a dozen participants. Or as Dean Bailey is doing in the San Francisco Region with a regional only "old school AS rules" with the MC (Muscle Car group). Started just 3 months ago it's currently comprised of 5 old A Sedans (and old drivers..the youngest is 50 and the oldest is yours truly at 71) and several more being built for three newcomers for driver's school next January. It's just for fun class with no aspirations of Roger Penske walking up to us in the paddock and asking us to drive his...well, anything. There are a few changes from 2018 AS rules such as banning A tires and a few more tweaks.

Oli Thordarson and his southern California Spec Corvette group have done much the same thing with ex T2 cars that SCCA obsoleted in much the same way as the AS cars. They've reached the point where new cars are being built for their group and have over a dozen cars so far. They use a spec tire with a 200 treadwear index and a cost of almost half that of a set of Hoosiers. And they last 3-4 weekends with no drop-off in times. I'm looking forward to seeing them race at the Labor Day Laguna Seca races.

I wonder out of all the AS cars out there how many are really serious about the Runoffs...a dozen throughout the country? of which 3 have a chance of running up front. IMHO AS is now consigned to the scrapheap of regional racing...and having fun in the class again.

Dave, if you drop the price of your RP Mustang to $15k I have a ready buyer for you right now that is looking for a car for the MC class here in the SF Region.
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Old 06-16-2019, 06:10 AM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 500

Everything depends on what your goals are.
Miatas for example.
The front runners are spending 30 to 40k more than it takes to build a front running car.
If you don't care about the runoffs and just want to race. Go spend 3 grand on a used miata and race regional.
The same seems to be true in AS.
I personally want to race against the best in the country. Not sure if I can beat them but they push me to go faster and work on my craft. I love it.
15k for an engines that lasts forever got it. Sure beats the old ones that broke every other race and costed half as much
2k for brakes that pads last until the end of the season. Sure beats changing pads every 2 sessions, rotors every day, and calipers every weekend.
2k for a trans that lasts an entire season if your clutch doesn't suck. Sure sounds better than our t 10 that made it 4 laps at road America.

Upfront costs are high, sure. But I can build a front runner AS racecar for a fraction of what a new camaro costs from chevy.
That sure seems to be different than when the class started.

Cheers to VIR!
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Old 06-16-2019, 06:46 PM
jimwheeler jimwheeler is offline
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Location: Kansas City
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To the question about the 10 seconds between Andy and the rest of us. The filed was very light. I had not been there for 6 years and was freaked by rolling the car at Canada and placing four off at max speed on the outside of the Kink. After Q2 Andy coached me with about 10 things that would improve my times. Unfortunately, on Saturday, my Panhard bar bracket broke off of the frame rail on the 2nd lap. I could not have come close to Andy, who is two steps above every driver, save a few, in ASean, but I would have dropped another five seconds from my Q time.
Congrats to Andy, Andy and Matt, for their podium finishes. Wish I could have played today.

P.S. I looked at my old data and times and found that my best there was 7 seconds better than what I did this weekend. Not exactly sure why that is, but I was going faster every session and wanted to peak on Sunday, but it was not to be.

Last edited by jimwheeler; 06-17-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:03 PM
CharlieR CharlieR is offline
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Default Watkins Glen 6/21-6/23

FYI... There are 10 AS cars registered so far for the Watkins Glen Super Tour race next weekend... and decent weather predicted!
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:44 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
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Richard, please point out all the advantages you think the SMG car has over a proper AS car. Use McDermid for comparison. Take a look at results from the June Sprints where McDermid was nearly as fast as the T2 Porsches that kicked the asses of both the SMG and AS cars at Sonoma. It's a track problem for the AS cars. Sonoma is not a track that favors a car with a peaky engine/crappy gear ratios/lame tire and wheel package. VIR and RA will not penalize the AS cars like Sonoma did.

I am planning on converting the AS Mustang to a T1 car as I don't believe it will be competitive at VIR or RA. No point in having it sit around for 2 years.
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:48 AM
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DBailey DBailey is offline
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Default The Point David!

I don't quite see your point David---You seem to come on here making claims and to point out issues in a class where you have no experience, owning a car that has raced once in A Sedan, that you have tried to sell and now claim you are going to turn into a T-1 car. Most all the others on this site have raced in A Sedan for years or are Racing in A Sedan currently and have actually experienced the changes and the result of those changes.
If you don't like the class or the rules, then go to another class and play the game there.

Your last post, you ask Richard to explain something that has been obvious for years and that there is a multitude of evidence for. Try checking lap times! Example---Laguna---2014 Andy gets pole at the runoffs with a 1:39.xx, Lap record for Laguna in SMG regional class is a 1:39.xx
So--either the SMG guys have been cheating up their cars, or they are as fast as Andy in Regional form. Check lap records for other west coast tracks--more of the same. If you build race cars you should know exactly why these cars are as fast as they are at different tracks.

Even though Aaron and I don't race in A/S any longer we both still like the class and the cars. I'm, quite frankly, getting pretty tired of you coming on here bad mouthing cars that you literally know nothing about!!

Either build a Proper A Sedan LP or FP car and race it in A Sedan for a year or two or move on.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:46 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
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As you say, you are no longer running AS. I on the other hand, am very interested in building cars for the class. Just not FP cars.

As far as the Laguna times, Eagleton just reset the AS track record at 39.85 while Andy ran 38.38 in the Runoffs race back in 2014. So while Eagletons time is fresh, I am sure if Andy went back to Laguna he would be faster still. You have to dig deeper than just AS. In 2014 the T3 field would have qualified 2 through 5th in AS. The West coast tracks just aren't kind to the driving dynamics of the AS FP cars.

The SMGs that you are worried about are running at their home tracks. The only one I can find that has ventured off the West coast got his ass kicked at COTA by Fandozzi BEFORE Fandozzi's car got it's camshaft allowance. And they were still a second slower than the AS track record set back in 2013. How fast do you think ANDY would go at COTA?

This leaves Sonoma's results. Yes the SMG do well there. BUT, they still got beat by the T2 Porsches by a wide margin. The very same Porsches that Andy could run with at the June Sprints. The AS field would have gotten beaten by the T3 front runners at Sonoma.

IT'S THE TRACKS THAT AREN'T SUITED TO THE AS FP CARS. I can assure you that the Runoffs will never go to Sonoma again. So, the only track that the SMG dominate the AS cars at is off the table. Just pray that SCCA doesn't fold the T3 field into AS...
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:35 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
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Again, I am seriously curious why the AS community thinks the SMG has an advantage over the FP AS cars.

IMO: FP AS has more power (a lot more) better trans, better R&P ratio, lighter weight, potentially much better suspension, similar front aero

SMG has abs brakes, better tire/wheel package (at added weight), similar front aero, and a lame ass rear wing that you can emulate by moving 70 lbs of ballast to the back of your FP car (with NO drag).

What am I missing?
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:45 PM
PamRichardson PamRichardson is offline
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Default Why?

David --

I could be completely off base here, but, consider these thoughts.

For one thing, no other AS car is allowed ABS. That is a complete unknown to most drivers, though some that have driven with it say it is a huge advantage. Especially in the rain, but, also in the dry.

Another potential issue is that no other AS car has a HP/Torque requirement via dyno at the rear wheels. So, at a place like the Runoffs, how is this enforced? What assurance do all the other AS cars have that an SMG is compliant in terms of HP/Torque? A dyno sheet? From everything I have ever heard from anyone using a dyno, they can make the numbers whatever you want. And, with the dyno the only engine requirement, there are no specs on the engine like with other AS cars, other than "it must be stock from Ford", a very vague statement, IMHO.

And, for all the years that AS fought so hard to keep SMG out of the class, these were the most commented on (at least to me) concerns.

I sincerely hope that they do bring compliant HP/Torque cars to the Runoffs.

Bottom line, fear of the known unknowns (as we used to call them in Risk Management). Pam
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