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  #41  
Old 11-09-2018, 07:56 PM
nomics nomics is offline
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I got into Asedan 10 years ago and was not excited about running a carburetor. I eventually picked up a Pro Systems carb and have not had any issues. I don't do anything to it and Felice checks it out when the engine gets refreshed. Never had any trouble running a carburetor.
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  #42  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:07 PM
Danny"TheKid"Richardson Danny"TheKid"Richardson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBailey View Post
Scott I agree with some of your statements---But you are seriously under estimating the costs involved in fitting these engines---I know--because I have done it--I have the receipts,I've personally done the work.

Just the aftermarket wiring harness starts at $600+ for the LS engines.
The tuning is not simple it is very critical and complicated and must be done correctly--10+ pulls on a chassis dyno--at least an hour of dyno time--($200+)
The tuning license for the ECU--and the tuners time--The tuning alone for our Firebird was over $500.00 (each time--we did it 3 times in 6 years) not including the dyno time costs. And if you change certain sensors--A/F meter--it has to be done all over again.

The new LS3 stuff is different from LS1/2/6 different ECU/ Throttle control,sensors, crank reluctor, I'm afraid it's just not as simple as you are making it out to be. When it comes to electronic engine control systems there just isn't a "cheap"easy solution. I takes time, resources, expertise,and money!

To assume that the "younger" future racer would be driven away by Carbs is not giving them much credit. And If they want to race in A Sedan with a F.I. engine there are several options already out there without stuffing LS3 or Coyote in vintage Pony cars.
How do I know this?--
For the past 8 years My son was the youngest person racing in A Sedan.
He didn't change to P-1 because of fuel injection, or a more technical engine, We left because of the ever-changing cost-adding rules.
I'm younger than Aaron and Steve ott is 3 years younger than me. His brother even less and in our area we have a 16 year old who may be at the runoffs next year.

Carbs versus FI doesn't keep youngsters away. The economy in general keeps them away. People 30 and under just can't afford racing unless it's regional miatas or something.

Last edited by Danny"TheKid"Richardson; 11-09-2018 at 09:13 PM.
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  #43  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:40 AM
nomics nomics is offline
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I agree Danny, No matter what class they all cost money. I did autocross in my younger years and was 37 before I even thought of club racing. I have seen that a lot of rule changes can deter people though. We have lost people because of it. I think there were some good changes that helped the class so it puts me on the fence when some of these things come up.
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  #44  
Old 11-10-2018, 03:24 AM
Richard Pryor Richard Pryor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PbFoot View Post
Some perspective. In 1995 AS became a National class. At that time Detroit had not produced a carbureted Pony car for 10 years. To run in AS you had to pitch the FI and the hydraulic cam. Why did the Club do this?

Carbs are cheap, easy to tune, and easy to police. Same for the solid cam. With this step back in technology, AS almost over night became one of the most popular classes in SCCA club racing and stayed that way for years. There was no FI option in AS for many years. If you wanted to run a FI Pony car back in the 90's, SSGT was the class for you.

I'm not smart enough to figure out why AS is not doing well now (we all have our theories), but history does not bear out that carburetors are the problem.
Matt...you're in luck...I'm smart enough to figure out why AS isn't doing well now.

I watched the birth of the AS class with interest as I had been running SSGT Camaros since 1990. Local racers of national note, Herb and Matt Adams built a Firebird to the rules, as did around a dozen local Northern California racers. The class was extremely popular and stable for around 4 years and then the first steps that have led to the low turnout and high cost began.

My belief that rules creep and the attendant cost increase can be directly correlated in an inverse function of class participation. AS started out as a basic warmed over version of the IMSA Firehawk series that was popular in the US and Canada. Huge fields. Affordable cars.

With a few exceptions, as noted by Danny, there are precious few young drivers heading toward AS. Why should they? There is little or no competition in most areas of the country and the cost to run at the front with John, Andy and Danny is double the budget of the oversubscribed grids of various Miata classes. AS, imho, is a dodo bird class, of which SCCA has too many.

In the desire to make every racer feel welcome the SCCA has created a plethora of National and Regional classes that have resulted in 6-8 well subscribed classes and the rest in the single digit range.

It's embarrassing in the SF Region group 5, where AS runs, when a typical field of 35 cars is comprised of 17 classes besides AS and there are nearly as many victory lap participants as there were cars in the race. Grp 5B-ITS,A,B,C,X,R F,HP STL,U E30 SMG BSpec AS T4 GTL SSC5 NL

Great if you like open track time or racing against one or two other same class cars (3 cars are a huge field in AS in the SFR). Not good for AS or other similar poorly managed classes.

The genie was let out of the bottle decades ago and it's too late to rewind and recork. The best that can be done is simply freeze the rules and look at several ways to decrease costs. My favorite idea is to take up the spec tire requirement. I've run NASA classes where this was a requirement with 200 treadwear Toyos. Everyone is on the same tire, they lasted me for 8 full race weekends in CMC with no drop off and they were affordable. It sure beats a new set (or two) of Hoosiers every weekend. Hoosiers are a defacto spec tire for AS but at what cost? Definitely not competitor equality. How many put on a new set of A7's each session? The sharp end of the grid. If you want new participants or at least more participation by cars already in the game, let the back of the grid person have the same tire as the front and have a tire good for 8 weekends, not 8 laps. It won't change the finishing order but it might have more cars racing and finishing. Another no cost fix is one that has been used for years...the weight adjustment. How many Fox AS are still running? It seems to me that the weight is a penalty for them...but this is just an example of cheap/no cost parity ideas.

Stay away from anything...repeat ANYTHING...that costs additional money. Yeah, yeah, it's really a lost cause class at this point. But those that are in it seem very passionate about it and racing. Maybe there are a few more people out there that might be enticed if there was a rigid no cost increase policy. Who knows?

With such a small AS class in the San Francisco Region, several of us have talked about instituting our own "off the books" tire rule and run the same 200 tw tire at all regionals. We'll have just as much fun and save thousands in tire expense. We'll see how many get on board with this.

I've enticed a friend of mine who has always wanted to race to buy an AS and go to school this February at Thunderhill. He can pick up an also ran car for around $12,000 and spend a few thousand more on it to make sure it's safe and stops and turns well. But he has no illusions of doing more than getting out on the track and having fun.

I'm 71 now and have no illusions of Roger Penske seeing me race and signing me to fill an Indy Car seat (besides lack of talent my butt wouldn't come close to fitting the cockpit). But 50 years, even 30 years ago, I'd have wanted to race in a class with lots of competition like the Spec Racer and Miata classes now. But the current AS...no chance.
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  #45  
Old 11-10-2018, 03:01 PM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
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I think a mic drop is in order after that post
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  #46  
Old 11-11-2018, 09:24 AM
Danny"TheKid"Richardson Danny"TheKid"Richardson is offline
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Not deterring anything you said Richard just want to clarify something. Pointy end miata racers spend more than point end as racers. The further back in the field you go in AS the drop off of cost is not as great as in miatas. Now some will say it's the cost of getting to woomah which I agree but kids these days don't care about it. There is a small group of young meatheads out there that love American muscle. Most kids that get into racing these days just care about racing and will do it in a POS if they could.

Look at pro racing for example. The pro Woomah level is trans am. While Tony Ave has been doing a great job I saw more pro miata racers than TA2 and they spend the same amount. There is this change in culture that is leading to the death of American muscle. The new pony cars are coming with 4 cylinder turbo options I mean come on.

How hard is it to buy a new car with a stick shift?

I don't disagree that the price of AS has led to people leaving and I also agree that if you lowered the costs old racers would return but this idea of how do we get the kids interested is an uphill battle. The only thing you can do in my opinion is cast a wide net and classify any car you can as an AS car.

It's no big deal, soon we will all have self driving race cars and the one who can program their computer driver the best will win
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  #47  
Old 11-11-2018, 01:50 PM
PbFoot PbFoot is offline
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If I wanted to build an AS car from scratch I would want it to look like one of these. A 1996 Mustang, not so much.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdqKEs18WuI
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  #48  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:38 PM
Scott Sanda Scott Sanda is offline
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And thus, we get back to a heavy regional focus with a lower cost formula of some kind, with the end goal of spilling over into national Racing. I am going to push very hard here in Cendiv for just such a rules set for 2019.

If you get x number of people running against each other in regionals, they might decide, as a group, to run a couple of nationals as a race within a race, just for fun.

What I would like, please, is ideas for the rules. What could be changed for a club AS rules set, that would reduce costs, and still be legal within the National rules set?
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  #49  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:45 PM
PbFoot PbFoot is offline
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Scott, that is a great idea.

Regional AS rules ideas

Rev limiter (keep it low) 6600
Rear end ratio no higher numerically than 3.73
Cheap spec tire (Toyo R888) can be used as wet or dry tire. BTW these are about half the cost of Hoosiers and available in sizes we need.

The other point is someone could run with this set up in the National AS group or take 5 minutes and put on a set of Hoosiers and a higher RPM chip and run faster than they did in the Regional race.
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  #50  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:42 PM
Ken Felice Ken Felice is offline
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Default 2018 final minutes

No matter what we do to lower cost tires, RPM, Etc. you will still have the better prepared cars and drivers up frt. this is a class that if you want to run up frt. you must PREP your car not wait till the day before you are leaving to make sure all is how you want it.
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