Go Back   American Sedan Forum > Main American Sedan Categories > American Sedan General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 06-18-2019, 07:28 PM
jimwheeler jimwheeler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,217
Default

Pam is right on point. On the administrative side, the question of classifying the car went out through the normal process on a couple of occasions as a WDYT. The members made their concerns known and were unanimous, except for a hand full of west coast SMG guys, that the cars did not belong in AS. There were, besides those that Pam mentioned, several things that had been requested for AS and denied in the past. So, almost all felt that giving these things to the SMG the first time they asked was not right. The main thing was that the process was followed and the car went into T2. Then, when I left the CRB and Pam, etc. left the ASAC, the car was jammed into AS without any further input.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:14 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PamRichardson View Post
David --

I could be completely off base here, but, consider these thoughts.

For one thing, no other AS car is allowed ABS. That is a complete unknown to most drivers, though some that have driven with it say it is a huge advantage. Especially in the rain, but, also in the dry.

Another potential issue is that no other AS car has a HP/Torque requirement via dyno at the rear wheels. So, at a place like the Runoffs, how is this enforced? What assurance do all the other AS cars have that an SMG is compliant in terms of HP/Torque? A dyno sheet? From everything I have ever heard from anyone using a dyno, they can make the numbers whatever you want. And, with the dyno the only engine requirement, there are no specs on the engine like with other AS cars, other than "it must be stock from Ford", a very vague statement, IMHO.

And, for all the years that AS fought so hard to keep SMG out of the class, these were the most commented on (at least to me) concerns.

I sincerely hope that they do bring compliant HP/Torque cars to the Runoffs.

Bottom line, fear of the known unknowns (as we used to call them in Risk Management). Pam
Thanks for the answer Pam.

As far as the engine power goes, the mechanical aspect is the same as any other T3 4.6L Mustang, so there is plenty of documentation as to cams, compression, bore, stroke, etc. There is 0 chance they could cheat that up. Engine and trans are identical to any Mustang GT off the street. As for the tuning, we have not only T3 V8s but also Miller Challenge Mustangs that are identical to the SMGs. We never saw more than 316 rwhp with the Challenge cars, which have CAI and headers like the SMG. My T3 V8 with CAI and OEM exhaust manifolds is 298/325tq. There is no place to go with those engines short of blatantly cheating cams/compression/heads. Very obvious if they make it to the tech shed.

As for the ABS, it would certainly be an advantage in the rain. I can speak from experience that at Portland this year a VERY experienced T3 Mustang racer went FASTER in the second race WITHOUT functional ABS (cooked the rear wiring). Theoretically, he could have gone faster still with a way to change the bias. No flat spotted tires. So I would have to disagree that the ABS is a serious advantage in the dry.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:36 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwheeler View Post
Pam is right on point. On the administrative side, the question of classifying the car went out through the normal process on a couple of occasions as a WDYT. The members made their concerns known and were unanimous, except for a hand full of west coast SMG guys, that the cars did not belong in AS. There were, besides those that Pam mentioned, several things that had been requested for AS and denied in the past. So, almost all felt that giving these things to the SMG the first time they asked was not right. The main thing was that the process was followed and the car went into T2. Then, when I left the CRB and Pam, etc. left the ASAC, the car was jammed into AS without any further input.
Thanks for the answer, Jim. I can understand your concern for the way it was put into AS. We had a similar issue with changes/car classification issues in STU. Despite overwhelmingly negative WDYT the CRB did it anyway. I will also say that some of the requests that were shot down by the AS adhoc were really kinda narrow thinking. I had requested rear lower control arms as it is cheaper to buy nice aftermarket units than to modify the OEM stuff. Not allowing Coyote engines in earlier Mustang chassis is also a little narrow minded.

As it stands, AS is running out of people willing to build to the FP rules. I can't think of a FP car that has been built recently that was capable of running up front, not just a "starting point" effort.

I do think that there is a way to make AS stronger, but that is going to require bringing the AS FP cars back into the fold of what AS was ORIGINALLY supposed to be. The right set of rules could see the AS FP cars remaining viable while also bringing the 4.6L V8 and even the 3.7L V6 into competition.

Assuming anybody even shows up with an SMG at VIR, I will happily cover your bet on their competitiveness there.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:53 AM
PamRichardson PamRichardson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 800
Default RP engine specs

David --

Thanks again for the update. There is a reason that the RP cars have engine specs in their spec lines. It is because at Laguna, Runoffs Tech said they could not tech engine specs because they were not listed in the spec lines. Not even compression ratio. Nothing in service manuals. They wanted to see it on spec lines. So after that Runoffs, the ASAC did the research to add that info.

As for short sidedness, please understand that the old and new ASAC know about a lot of available aftermarket parts. My chassis people would love it! However, in "getting back to what AS FP is about", it is not just engine. It is the entire car. The community has been vehement over the years about not allowing aftermarket A-arms, K-members, trailing arms, etc. The WDYTs always come back to NOT change the rules and force them to spend more money. FWIW, the ASAC did try to honor what the community wanted. Sometimes there is a real history to making such a decision, aka, "corporate knowledge" as it were. FWIW, also, the engine rules have been in place 10 years now, with mostly clarification changes only.

Assuming you are at the Runoffs, I'd sure like to pick your brain for guidance on a lot that you post.

Thanks, Pam
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:19 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 45
Default

The Laguna tech were being lazy. There's a reason I avoid the CA races. As far as the SMG engine goes "j) Engine:
(1) No modifications to the engine are allowed except where specifically authorized within these rules. RACE-BUILT ENGINES ARE NOT ALLOWED. All engines will be as built and delivered by Ford Motor Company. (2) Cars in this class are to run stock 4.6 liter engines from 2005-2009 cars at no more than 315 rear wheel horsepower, and 325 ft lbs of torque. Updating or backdating of entire engine long block is allowed. (3) Dyno testing may be required if it appears than an engine in a competing car has an edge in power. Determination of any potential power advantage will be made by SCCA stewards. Test to be done at owner’s expense by dyno shop
San Francisco Region Only Rules November 5, 2015 Spec Mustang (SMG) Page 6 approved by the SCCA. (4) Engine is to be unmodified internally. No balancing or blueprinting is allowed. " As you can see, the engine is to remain bone stock. I would argue that the SMG is considered a "restricted prep" classification and the AS rules require "Restricted Preparation Cars Only: Restricted Preparation American Sedan automobiles shall, at all times, be in compliance with the specifications contained within their factory Shop/Service Manual(s) except as modified by these rules. Factory Shop/Service Manuals may come in the form of printed material, microfiche, CDs, DVDs and/or Internet access to manufacturer sponsored web-based databases. It is the responsibility of the competitor to provide this information upon request from any SCCA official and to provide the electronic device capable of accessing the data for compliance verification. Failure to provide some form of the Factory Shop/ Service Manual upon request is adequate for disqualification from any event."
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:32 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 45
Default

I understand not opening Pandora's box as far as the front suspension goes but to limit me to modifying OEM rear control arms when there are half a dozen available options under 200 dollars is crazy. The rear axle cost me 3000 dollars in parts to put together but the rules won't let me spring for a 200 dollar set of bolt on control arms?? Even the Touring classes allow rear control arms.

Based on what I have seen done with the OEM control arms I am confident that the aftermarket control arms would actually be less effective, but it would still be nice to have that option. Bolt on: very attractive. Modify OEM: not so much.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:41 PM
jimwheeler jimwheeler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,217
Default

I asked for the aftermarket control arms and they have been approved for 2020.

P.S. your understanding of the SMG inclusion in AS is wrong. They do not come in under RP rules. The RP rules do not apply, as they come in under their own set of rules as they are specified. Those rules only refer to dyno numbers, not what you quoted. You really need to spend a little more time understanding all this stuff before you spout.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:40 PM
KyleJones KyleJones is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwheeler View Post
I asked for the aftermarket control arms and they have been approved for 2020.
Is that rears only? Is there a list of changes approved for 2020, I don't see anything in Fastrack? I've heard that there might be a crate motor option for FP cars in 2020?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:18 PM
KyleJones KyleJones is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 8
Default

Okay I found the proposed rule changes from 5/31.

Question still stands if there has been discussions about a crate motor options for next year. If there was a decent crate motor for my GM FP it would allow me to compete at RA in 2020.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:12 PM
DHRMX5 DHRMX5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwheeler View Post
I asked for the aftermarket control arms and they have been approved for 2020.

P.S. your understanding of the SMG inclusion in AS is wrong. They do not come in under RP rules. The RP rules do not apply, as they come in under their own set of rules as they are specified. Those rules only refer to dyno numbers, not what you quoted. You really need to spend a little more time understanding all this stuff before you spout.
Trust me Jim, I spend far too much time reading the rules. What I said was it is arguable that the SMG could be considered to be a restricted prep classification in AS because it is limited to a spec that is other than FP AS rules. The AS rules require the participant to provide any documentation needed to tech their engines/trans when running a restricted prep level.

That was in answer to Pam's concern that there was no set engine specs for SMG.

Unless of course you would prefer to argue that the SMG is not subject to providing documentation regarding the legality of the engine in which case the AS class is truly ****ed... Which do you prefer?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.