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wre46 03-21-2014 03:22 PM

Dry Sumps
 
I think for the people who engineered and spent allot of time and money in perfecting the wet sump system will not have to go to a Dry Sump. Its not as easy to bolt this on. Will Vacuum pumps be made legal?

I also think that there should be a weight penalty as a dry sump system is a MAJOR performance advantage.

Any Chevy guys can contact me and I can set you up a wetsump pan that works perfect.

wre46 03-21-2014 03:24 PM

I think for the people who engineered and spent allot of time and money in perfecting the wet sump system will not have to go to a Dry Sump. Its not as easy to bolt this on. Will Vacuum pumps be made legal? Cog belts? (standard on just about all dry sump systems)

You would not believe how much re-engineering you will have to do to even install (if there is even space to do it) Crossmembers may interfere with some installations.

I also think that there should be a weight penalty (125lbs) as a dry sump system is a MAJOR performance advantage.

Any Chevy guys can contact me and I can set you up a wetsump pan that works perfect.

wre46 03-21-2014 03:25 PM

I think for the people who engineered and spent allot of time and money in perfecting the wet sump system will not have to go to a Dry Sump. Its not as easy to bolt this on. Will Vacuum pumps be made legal? Cog belts? (standard on just about all dry sump systems)

You would not believe how much re-engineering you will have to do to even install (if there is even space to do it) Crossmembers may interfere with some installations.

I also think that there should be a weight penalty (125lbs) as a dry sump system is a MAJOR performance advantage.

Any Chevy guys can contact me and I can set you up a wetsump pan that works perfect.

Scott Seifreit 03-21-2014 04:27 PM

Jeff is correct about a well designed wet sump system being fine. I think what a lot of people that haven't run Daytona worry about is the speed through the banking and the lateral forces. From my experience there, there is less lateral loading there than say turn 17 or turn 1 at Sebring. The banking is so extreme at Daytona that at speed you have much more vertical loading than lateral loading. The banking at speed literal pushes you down in the seat, not sideways. What made Daytona scary for me was the old pavement in the banking. It was very bumpy to the extent that the car felt almost airborne at times. If you could run up high against the wall it was a little better than down low. With the repaving a couple years ago the banking is almost glass smooth.

Driving the banking a Daytona is like being on a straightaway. You plant your foot and there is very little steering correction. There is more negative steering correction on the pace lap than at speed. We have to turn up the banking to keep the car straight.

I can't recall ever having oil issues there. I wish I could say that about Sebring where there are several flat high speed turns where oil is more likely to slosh up the side of the pan.

If the ASAC and CRB wants to allow dry sump systems then I will take one just for the other tracks I run.

wre46 03-21-2014 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Seifreit (Post 31968)
From my experience there, there is less lateral loading there than say turn 17 or turn 1 at Sebring. The banking is so extreme at Daytona that at speed you have much more vertical loading than lateral loading.



Scott, great points on the loading. I think Sebring and the Carousel at Road America are much harder on oil control then Daytona was

Ken Felice 03-21-2014 04:36 PM

Dry sump
 
A dry sump is an ideal system for race cars that need them and for people that can afford the system. I have quite a lot of exp. with them. We install them on all dirt late model engines. If you are going to put one on your car, you should have two complete systems pump hoses etc. If you ever have an engine come apart it will put metal in every thing so if you carry a spare engine you want clean oil system when you install it. Being at track there is no way of cleaning. I am not saying yes or no, just some info. How about asking Tom Ellis and the other fellows that run their regular they have not had a lot of engine probs. on the high banks etc. We raced at MIS last year didn't go 170 but in 160's no engine issues.
Ken Felice

fastandyracing 03-21-2014 05:47 PM

I believe that a well designed dry sump system, even at two stages and not allowing any vacuum build up in the pan area (the open breather proposal) will provide a significant performance advantage due solely to the reduced windage in the pan. Scotts proposal would probably provide less of an advantage, but you are still looking at at least $1000 to implement something like that.

Is this all because of Daytona?? Look everyone, while Daytona may be new to most of country, we CFR folks have the amazing luck to run there several times each year. Is the banking intimidating at first, you bet, doubly so before the repave. Are there an inordinate amount of blown engines, tires, broken spindles and such there every time we race? Emphatically NO. I have been racing there for 5 years, Scott for 10. Have we lost an engine there due to oiling issues, No. I have an out of the box Canton road race pan, Scotts is a modified home built pan. We both have accusumps. Have I ever seen my oil pressure light wink on in the banking, NO.

I know we aren't quite as fast as the national guys, but we aren't so much slower that we wouldn't be seeing some sort of issues over the years. In my experience, nothing has been any worse at Daytona than Sebring, or Roebling, or PBIR.

So lets settle down a little about Daytona, I don't think it is as scary as everyone seems to be making it out to be. I am sure we will start to see some of the national guys down here during the next couple of years checking it out, so lets see what they have to say after they actually have some track time.

FYI, I am way less comfortable on the banking at Homestead than I am at Daytona. The banking is so steep that, like Scott said, it is pretty much a curved straightaway.

Andy

PamRichardson 03-21-2014 07:51 PM

To answer the question
 
Here are my original words from this afternoon:

"OK, here is a proposal for dry sumps for all AS engines, FP and RP. With the high quality and technology of our tires, our cars are seeing g-forces above what most engine builders are comfortable with (aka 1.5 and greater) on our traditional road race courses. The problem is likely to be worse at places like Daytona."

The ASAC has been looking at dry sump system ideas since before the Daytona Runoffs announcement.

So, Daytona is NOT the issue. The issue is the "Gs" we are seeing on road race courses. Having them in time for Daytona, is probably a good idea.

The ASAC has consulted Tom Ellis and Chas Dawson (ASAC member). They did not indicate oil problems at Daytona, any different from other tracks. I repeat, the problem exists at all tracks.

The proposal is intended to have MINIMAL performance advantage, so look at it that way. If we have missed something to meet that goal, let us know. There is no planned weight penalty.

Pam

thomas toth 03-21-2014 08:38 PM

Other than Pam has anyone had an issue? If so maybe the cars should be slowed down rather than converted into GT1 cars.

Tom

scottdolsen 03-21-2014 08:53 PM

I have a significant oil control problem with my Ford Motorsports Boss 302 block. I have damaged the engine twice due to oil pick up problems. Both times spun rod bearings. Both times it cost about $1,000 in parts and machine work to repair. I feel that I am barley getting my engine to survive, I am dependent on the Accusump accumulator to keep my engine running, without it it will spin bearings. I don't like depending on the accumulator. If your accumulator is functioning that means your oil pump is picking up air and processing it through the system and the air pockets will make it back to your bearings.

I think this proposal for limited style dry sump system is a very good idea.

Scott Olsen


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